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2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

February 5, 2018, 8:11 am
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by Evoforce (Posted Mon, 05 Feb 2018 23:11:41 GMT+7)
What I meant was... that none of the rapid degradation of the previous Leaf batteries, of any year, has been acceptable to me. ;) And... that my belief is that the 2018 Leaf battery, which is still designed without liquid management, will have a much shortened life without it.

Do I hope that (if possible) Nissan and their battery supplier can discover the battery that doesn't need it? Sure! But not the way they have been doing it at great expense to their customers and dinging EV battery reputation.

Give us batteries proven to work now and continue their research in their own experimental department and release it if they can perfect it. If it proves to be possible, it would be better. There would be less energy used on a daily basis and probably cheaper to produce.

If they could provide such a battery, their reputation is damaged, so, it will take some real convincing to trust that they have provided a battery without a TMS that will have the durability and longevity that it should.

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Where are the 2018's?

February 5, 2018, 9:19 am
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by LeftieBiker (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 00:19:55 GMT+7)
I don't think the markets overlap as much as people think. Having similar prices doesn't mean that similar people are strongly attracted to one or the other. The Leaf is more like a Corolla or Civic, and attracts people who want value and comfort, with excellent reliability and adequate performance. The M3 is more like a BMW M3, in that people want some luxury mixed with high performance, with the other factors being of less importance. What confuses matters is that the cars - at the lower end, anyway - are similarly priced, and they are both the same "kind" of car - compact EVs. There are also enough people who would consider either a base M3 or a Leaf SV to add some surface validity to the idea that the cars are directly competing with each other, even though IMO they are not.

When it's easy to test drive both cars, things will sort themselves out: people who like comfortable cars with comfortable rides will choose the Leaf, while those who want great handling and acceleration in their EV will choose the M3. Or maybe the Bolt.

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Official Tesla Model 3 thread

February 5, 2018, 11:22 am
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by RegGuheert (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 02:22:28 GMT+7)
lorenfb wrote:Tesla should've continued using an induction motor, or when switching to a PM motor not used JB Weld to attach the magnets to the rotor. :D
Hey, what's wrong with JB Weld? ;)

On a serious note, let's hope that Tesla did not choose to glue the magnets to the outside of the rotor. IMO, that would be a mistake in terms of reliability and this type of failure will not be uncommon. It is much better to make the permanent magnets captive by placing them inside the rotor where they are fully captive.

Are there any photographs of the rotors of the Model 3 around somewhere?

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Tesla's influence on the auto industry and elsewhere

February 5, 2018, 1:02 pm
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by garsh (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 04:02:23 GMT+7)
Remember, when the Model S came out, everyone said that it was handsome, but pretty much a generic four-door car shape. Tesla didn't take any chances with the design. Musk even said that they wanted it to look like a car, not some kind of wierdmobile. So it's not surprising that one would find that other cars look similar to the Model S.

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Thinking of car finance option

February 5, 2018, 1:22 pm
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by baustin (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 04:22:18 GMT+7)
Whichever will give you the best terms for the loan. My current loan (taken out 3/2015) is 1.99% through a credit union. At the time, the banks wanted between 2.9% and 3.2% for the same loan.

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Solar Impulse - Flying Around the World Powered Only by PV

February 5, 2018, 1:58 pm
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by RegGuheert (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 04:58:49 GMT+7)
GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:As far as collecting data goes, the data which was yet to be collected was the data which could ONLY be gathered on this leg of the mission. They needed to find out if the plane could store enough potential and battery energy to make it through the night over the Pacific, and to do this over and over again each day for five days. They also needed to find out if Pierre could manage to fly the plane for five days. The ONLY way to collect that data was to actually DO it. It turned out that Pierre WAS able to succeed even with an additional hurdle put in his way. OTOH, it also turned out that the thermal design of the batteries was insufficient for the purpose.

Data could just have easily been collected flying over land, or out and back over the ocean.
Sure, "data" could have been collected in that way, it just would not have been useful to improve the chances of a success over that leg of the flight. Here's why:

- The Solar Impulse 2 was solar-powered which has a very low airspeed and did not have sufficient energy storage in the battery to fly through a 12-hour night at the equator at a constant altitude. So how did it manage to fly halfway across the Pacific Ocean, then? They did two things that made that flight possible: 1) They stored some of the energy needed for flying overnight as potential energy rather than in the batteries, and 2) They flew from West to East, thus shortening the duration of nighttime by about 25 minutes. Part of this shortening was the direct result of the tailwinds that occur when traveling in that direction and part of it was due to the direction of rotation of the Earth. While 1) could be done anywhere, 2) required flying about 65 degrees around the globe in the direction from West to East over five or more 24-hour days.

As such, flying "out and back over the ocean" likely would have simply been impossible because of these constraints. Imagine flying "out""over the ocean" in an easterly direction through an entire night. How would you get "back"? First of all, flying in a westerly direction is not even possible above a certain windspeed. And unless the windspeed is less than 1/3 of the airspeed of the Solar Impulse 2, then it will not be possible to get back to land before the next night. Perhaps very still conditions exist sometimes around the solstice in the equatorial Pacific or Atlantic, but it is likely rare given that is when the sun has the most impact on winds over the equator.

- Flying over land provides a strong incentive to abort while flying over water provides a strong incentive to press on. Sure, they possibly could have tried to fly for five days in an easterly direction over Asia, but, guess what?, they likely would have aborted as soon as there was the problem occurred. Why? Because it is so easy to do. And if that problem hadn't aborted the flight something else likely would have. There is nothing like the INABILITY to abort that keeps long-duration missions going.

- Finally, no amount of collecting flight data would have solved the biggest problem that they faced on that leg of the trip: the inability to predict the weather five days in advance. Only by having a plane with a higher windspeed could they have resolved that problem. That could push such a flight a decade or more into the future. Simply put, the weather is one risk which simply could not be retired for that leg of the flight.

In the end, they did the best thing they could have done: they pressed on and achieved what the the Solar Impulse 2 was designed to accomplish.

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Extreme cold - drive battery appears dead - help

February 5, 2018, 2:07 pm
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by RegGuheert (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 05:07:37 GMT+7)
Nubo wrote:Also, as far as I know the cells don't contain water, but organic solvents.
That's correct. In fact, AESC went to great lengths to keep water OUT of these cells. The humidity level in the factory is kept to a very low level. Simply put, water kills Li-ion batteries.

I'm not sure about Li-ion, but one thing that kills Li-polymer batteries and causes them to swell is allowing them to sit fully discharged. When that happens, the hydrogen somehow leaks out of something and fills the pouch, never to return. (That said, I have seen some Li-polymer batteries reduce their swelling upon charging which others do not.)

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60 miles daily roundtrip all year long

February 5, 2018, 2:09 pm
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by jjeff (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 05:09:18 GMT+7)
Costy wrote:Do you know guys where I can check the VIN ? Did you have any recalls, any software updates I should be aware of?

Thank you again guys,
All the best - Costy.

This is the only VIN lookup link I know of, not sure if it will work for European Leafs though....
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23716
Click on the link in the first post and then substitute your VIN for the one in the link. It should give you the original window sticker.

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60 miles daily roundtrip all year long

February 5, 2018, 2:29 pm
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by RegGuheert (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 05:29:54 GMT+7)
jjeff wrote:This is the only VIN lookup link I know of, not sure if it will work for European Leafs though....
Unlikely, since it doesn't wok on LEAFs built in Japan, even those shipped to the US for sale.

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Extreme cold - drive battery appears dead - help

February 5, 2018, 2:49 pm
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by LeftieBiker (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 05:49:45 GMT+7)
Yes, water doesn't just harm lithium cells. It can make them burst into flames and/or explode. And yes on being run too low making lithium cells swell. Just not being constricted by a hard enclosure can also make lithium pouch cells swell.

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Thinking of car finance option

February 5, 2018, 3:24 pm
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by RonDawg (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 06:24:37 GMT+7)
Sometimes car manufacturers will offer 0% financing, or at least a rate that is lower than you would normally be able to get, in order to move more cars. There may be caveats to that such as it's only available for specific models/trims, or require minimum credit scores, or require minimum down payment percentages, etc..

Credit Unions traditionally offered better terms on both the interest-earning and the interest-saving side, but that is not always the case anymore. For example, while it's not a loan, I am getting far better rates from Ally on even regular passbook savings than I am with an identical product through my credit union.

On my last car loan (not lease) my CU only beat the manufacturer's in-house APR by 0.5%. I ended up going with the CU anyway because they take 1/2 of the payment 2x a month, making it a little easier to budget, but if it weren't for that I would likely have just stayed with the manufacturer's financing which was only $5/month more.

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Official Tesla Model 3 thread

February 5, 2018, 4:07 pm
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by EVDRIVER (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:07:27 GMT+7)
lorenfb wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:...I've heard of the rangers, but can tesla really afford to pay for them on a lower margin car like the model 3?..

A terribly inefficient method of servicing vehicles, that has never been affordable for the high-priced Teslas, contributing to the record of billions of dollars of TSLA corporate loses.

On a related note...wonder how much $ TSLA has lost on this 3, so far...


First Model 3 motor failure reported, Tesla engineers on their way to investigate

An early Tesla Model 3 owner has reported that the motor in his Model 3 suddenly failed, leaving the car inoperable.

TeslaWeekly has been in direct contact with the owner of the vehicle and has learned more details.

The owner of the Model 3, Stephen Day, had driven the car about 270 miles since taking delivery. He explains to Tesla Weekly, “The wife took it down the street 2 miles away to a meeting to show it off. She had a friend in it and was accelerating a little hard and it made a loud thud, like she hit something.”

He continues, “Then she lost all all propulsion and got the error on the screen that it needs serviced and may not start again. She pulled over and called support. Tried rebooting, powering off and on, walking away and coming back, etc.”

“They suspected it was a fuse. Hauled it off to the service center.” However, the technicians and service advisor at his local service center later confirmed that the motor had failed.

“Tesla is flying a new drive unit and engineering team out here.”...

http://teslaweekly.com/first-model-3-mo ... vestigate/


Tesla should've continued using an induction motor, or when switching to a PM motor not used JB Weld to attach the magnets
to the rotor. :D


I guess that applies to Nissan as well since they had motor failures as well on their low power motors. Of course this will be the end of Tesla right? Like how Nissan failed before they corrected their pack issues? Wait, they still have not corrected that issue, I was confusing it with the defective PDM units that caused hundreds of LEAFs to have charging failures.

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2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

February 5, 2018, 4:15 pm
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by DaveinOlyWA (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:15:33 GMT+7)
What would be acceptable? I wondered that myself and I guess it really depends on the size of the pack.

In 30 kwh pack; no more than 2% per 10,000 miles or less than 20% after 100,000 miles or 5 years, whichever is LATER.

On a 40 kwh pack, I would go either no more than 1% per 10,000 miles or MORE than 5% per year (so I get a replacement pack) since the range at replacement would still be near 100 miles :)

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60 miles daily roundtrip all year long

February 5, 2018, 4:19 pm
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by WetEV (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:19:07 GMT+7)
Costy wrote:I can charge it at work for free so I don't want to really charge it at home. I have some charging stations at about 4-6 miles from where I live but you know, when you arrive home after work you don't really feel like going outside again to charge the car.


Ideal case would be a charging station where you park your car at home. Then you take seconds to plug in when you park the car. This also lets you preheat the car on frosty mornings using grid power. Nice to get into a cozy car.

60 miles is more than I would attempt as a commute. Summer, sure. Winter, with cold, wind, sloppy roads, not a chance.

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2012 under warranty getting low miles

February 5, 2018, 4:26 pm
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by RobotGhoul (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:26:02 GMT+7)
Thanks for the responses. As if to prove me wrong, my car is doing a little better day. I am aware of the heated seat trick and usually will do that instead of running the heat, but in this weather I at least have to run the front window defrost periodically so I can see through the windsheild. I do preheat while it's plugged in in the garage. I should check my tire pressure too. Today I started with 41 (heat and eco on) and got to work with 27 remaining (heat and eco, 10 miles of travel). It's also icy out so there is some sliding and spinning of tires. I guess I should count myself lucky that my commute isn't too long.

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Where are the 2018's?

February 5, 2018, 4:29 pm
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by DaveinOlyWA (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:29:04 GMT+7)
tuningin wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:First confirmed delivery yesterday in Dallas Ft. Worth. Customer came in and did a test drive and bought the test vehicle!


I still think that this is nonsense since there are a supposed 13,000 reservations yet they have been shipping cars to dealers without reservations and for general sale first.


I think there are few cars currently on the lot for sale although someone in S. Cal mentioned his dealer invited him to test drive a car to buy so who knows?

What surprises me is the lack of real spotting of cars up to now. Now how a demo got sold is a question and wondering how many miles were on it? I hope for the buyer's sake it wasn't one of the cars used in the charge to home demo's where the pack got cycled SEVERAL times while stationary making the odometer reading inaccurate for determining use.

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Leaf for driving school

February 5, 2018, 5:47 pm
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by aarond12 (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 08:47:55 GMT+7)
From another angle: Beginning drivers might be really confused by the LEAF. Its user interface (the shifter puck) is significantly different. The car makes no idle noise. These are things that *experienced* drivers are confused about. I worry about inexperienced drivers who then get into their ICE vehicles and it feels unfamiliar. Is this shaking when I'm not moving normal?! :o

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2012 under warranty getting low miles

February 5, 2018, 5:58 pm
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by jlv (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 08:58:16 GMT+7)
Do not believe the "miles remaining" display on the dashboard. It is horribly misleading and changes in a non-linear fashion. You need to buy LeafSpyPro and get an OBD-II dongle to read the actual remaining capacity in the battery.

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2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

February 5, 2018, 7:34 pm
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by DaveinOlyWA (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 10:34:42 GMT+7)
powersurge wrote:
SageBrush wrote:In a well maintained Toyota or Honda the car can be expected to run 250k miles before a major repair occurs, and the repair is (just guessing here) in the $2-4,000 dollar range. For some people the more expensive upfront cost can be offset by the fuel savings over time but the Nissan EV longevity issue is far, far away from being fixed. 100k miles is not going to come close to being competitive unless the battery replacements are $1000


I don't think so.. At 100K miles, one can be prepared to put in a new transmission or engine on an ICE. If you have to change a battery on the Leaf at 100K miles, then that battery has given you great service for those miles.... Putting in a new battery cost would be giving the car a new life for the next 100K miles. A $6000 investment on a Leaf is a bargain to get another 100K miles. If any car without an engine is basically worth scrap, then the investment will save $15,000 in gas that you did not buy, and also saved $$$ on other repairs.

I really am surprised that so many people are concerned with depreciation, and the resale value of the Leaf when they are only Leasing. An owner would see that there is still value of the depreciated Leaf in being able to drive gas-free as long as he (she) is able to own that car.


Agreed. We all have this false impression of these cars but reality simply does not jive here. We got a Yaris at around 30,000 miles (probably a rented rental) and it had timing belt, brakes, alignment, cooling system thingy, (I bought the car but not my car so don't remember all that has happened) and the car has yet to hit 130,000 miles.

Granted there are a bunch of cars out there that will go 200,000 miles with relatively few minor repairs but that is not the norm.

I have to say its probably not the car but the roads which are getting worse by the day.

But again, we are using the past of a rapidly emerging technology to predict the future while ignoring the basics.
whatever.

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Official Tesla Model 3 thread

February 5, 2018, 7:58 pm
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by EVDRIVER (Posted Tue, 06 Feb 2018 10:58:04 GMT+7)
lpickup wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:No well-managed auto manufacture would ever launch any new vehicle, much less one the very existence of the company depended on, using a new motor design like the model 3's, without millions of miles of durability testing.


The well-managed adjective aside (which is your opinion), you're right...no auto manufacturer (other than Tesla) would ever launch any radically new vehicles (no additional qualifiers needed) and maybe that's exactly the problem.

Go ahead and show me an automaker (well-managed in your opinion or not) that is actually making significant, sustained, and accelerating progress in transitioning the world to electric transportation.



Nissan did extensive testing in high temp conditions on the LEAF pack, remember that:) Perhaps they forgot to test leaving it parked at high SOC levels. I was just on the freeway behind a M3 and I think I saw some PM magnets shoot out the back under the car. It's going to start cascading fast I hear. Keep your sunroofs closed magnets are in the air and the sky is falling!

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